Author Topic: Epiphany!  (Read 10467 times)

moldynotgo

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2012, 05:30:46 pm »
I still say that, given the motivations, Raumesys could have been convinced to kill off his "own" son so Forge or whomever could hand-pick a suitable heir to the throne.

Sarah

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2012, 05:36:19 pm »
Quote from: Moondreamer
Else, as Mana mentionned, it might have been a completely different motive, like feeling that he was sent to his death and the mission was suicidal

Right, but what could that possibly be? It's Sicarius. Did he tell him to jump in a volcano or something?
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Mana

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2012, 06:53:43 pm »
Maybe Sicarius ws asked to kill Marathi herself, depending on the timeline (I can't remember if it was mentionned when he went against that order and if Marathi was alive at the time). Since MArathi is his son's mother, I could see him refusing for the boy's sake. Else, as Mana mentionned, it might have been a completely different motive, like feeling that he was sent to his death and the mission was suicidal, o simply ending up realizing that the person he was asked to kill didn't really present a threat and it was personnal to Raumesys or Hollowcrest (Husband of a mistress?)

" simply ending up realizing that the person he was asked to kill didn't really present a threat and it was personnal to Raumesys or Hollowcrest"

This wouldn't matter to Sic would it? I mean he'd killed for less than that.
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Cael

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2012, 07:28:32 pm »
[" simply ending up realizing that the person he was asked to kill didn't really present a threat and it was personnal to Raumesys or Hollowcrest"

This wouldn't matter to Sic would it? I mean he'd killed for less than that.

Yeah, Sicarius isn't Fett, picking and choosing missions of whether he thinks it's right or wrong :p
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Mana

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2012, 08:34:59 pm »
The only way I see him turning down a mission is if the mission is so foolhardy that he was guaranteed to fail or to be killed. I don't think Sespian was at risk here.
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AKK

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2012, 11:19:19 pm »
From what I recall of the hints scattered in the books, Marathi died a few years before Raumesys during a fever epidemia.
Given that Sicarius said that Raumesys killed his "barren" 1st wife with his own hands despite his court assassin being already "on duty", I don't think the old king fart would have ordered Sespians death instead of doing it himself.
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Moondreamer

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 07:32:47 am »
Raumesys would have done so himself unless, maybe, he had a good suspiscion that Sicarius was the father. Then, he would have made it one heck of a mind game. "Go kill Sespian to show your true loyalty to the throne..." knowing well Sicarius would either refuse and show himself to be the father (or at least to have become resistant to order, which would be about as bad) or kill his own son and live with that fact for the rest of his life, which would be revenge for being cuckolded for Raumesys... but, I might be thinking too much into this.
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AKK

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2012, 07:41:31 am »
Raumesys would have done so himself unless, maybe, he had a good suspiscion that Sicarius was the father. Then, he would have made it one heck of a mind game. "Go kill Sespian to show your true loyalty to the throne..." knowing well Sicarius would either refuse and show himself to be the father (or at least to have become resistant to order, which would be about as bad) or kill his own son and live with that fact for the rest of his life, which would be revenge for being cuckolded for Raumesys... but, I might be thinking too much into this.

Considering that Raumesys, according to some lines in EE5, was not entirely comfortable around his court assassin any more, I kind of doubt that he'd risk that kind of test game. Besides, suspicion regarding his heir - independent of whether or not he suspected Sicarius's involvement - would have resulted in immediate consequences for Sespian, given how fixed Turgonians seems with respect of "imperial lineage". I don't think Raumesys would have contemplated waiting for affirmation or covering up for his pride / old age / lack of replacements.
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Moondreamer

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2012, 07:44:04 am »
Raumesys would have done so himself unless, maybe, he had a good suspiscion that Sicarius was the father. Then, he would have made it one heck of a mind game. "Go kill Sespian to show your true loyalty to the throne..." knowing well Sicarius would either refuse and show himself to be the father (or at least to have become resistant to order, which would be about as bad) or kill his own son and live with that fact for the rest of his life, which would be revenge for being cuckolded for Raumesys... but, I might be thinking too much into this.

Considering that Raumesys, according to some lines in EE5, was not entirely comfortable around his court assassin any more, I kind of doubt that he'd risk that kind of test game. Besides, suspicion regarding his heir - independent of whether or not he suspected Sicarius's involvement - would have resulted in immediate consequences for Sespian, given how fixed Turgonians seems with respect of "imperial lineage". I don't think Raumesys would have contemplated waiting for affirmation or covering up for his pride / old age / lack of replacements.

You're probably right with that. If anything, that would be more something up Hollowcrest's alley, and he would have no real reason to do it.
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adamai

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2012, 01:37:08 pm »
I keep thinking that the target was a kid, an heir to another country maybe. I think he would refuse assassinating another kid after Mangdorian family.

Sarah

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2012, 04:58:02 pm »
Here's what happens at the end of Encrypted, when Rias and Sicarius have their little talk. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag, because while I expect everyone to have read the EE series, I'm not sure if everyone has read Encrypted, so better safe than sorry, I guess.

Spoiler
"You never intended to help. You had the chance to redeem yourself, but you betrayed the emperor again."

Rias stopped a few feet from him. "Yes."

Sweat dripped down the sides of Sicarius's dust-streaked face and dampened his pale hair. For the first time, he seemed uncertain, frazzled. Young. "Why?"

"I couldn't let him have those weapons. There's no honor in destroying one's enemies like that. Nobody should have that kind of power."

"That wasn't for you to decide."

"Yes, it was. Sometimes the only person capable of such a decision is someone who stands on the outside, someone who has nothing left to lose, nothing to gain, by the outcome."

"Nothing to gain?" Sicarius asked. "You could have had your life back, you lands." The faintest hint of longing entered his voice. "You could have been a hero again."

. . .

"That's never been a goal of mine," Rias said. "The definition of a hero changes depending on the needs of the person with the dictionary. And of late I've become more aware of how much being a hero to the empire means being a war criminal to the rest of the world . . . For twenty years, I served Turgonia. I think it's time now to see if I can serve the world."

So, formative moment in young Sicarius's life, wouldn't you say? And probably what prompted him to think that he was the person to kill Raumesys. Who stands more on the outside than someone who has been raised apart from everything and everyone else? I think the line I put in bold is central to Sicarius's concept of self, because to some extent he views himself as that person, and part of his journey to humanity is realizing how very much he's not.

Given the passage that I've posted, I'm wondering if maybe it wasn't something more along the lines of killing the Mangdorian chief and his family that killing Starcrest that Sicarius refused. I think it's definitely something that would have to put Sicarius is the position to make the morally right decision, rather than the strategically right one.
"She tried to imagine him married and living in a house in the countryside with a passel of toddlers running around. The vision did not evolve far. If he ever  married, it would have to be to someone who would follow him into the woods and up a tree." -- Dark Currents

K2N2

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2012, 11:03:51 am »
Sarah...that passage is exactly why I think the refused order was to kill Starcrest.  I can see Sicarius thinking that long term having Starcrest around as an "outside force" would be beneficial expecially when Sespian became emperor.

Sara M.

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2012, 11:24:35 am »
Sarah...that passage is exactly why I think the refused order was to kill Starcrest.  I can see Sicarius thinking that long term having Starcrest around as an "outside force" would be beneficial expecially when Sespian became emperor.

Yes, me too. I thought of Starcrest when I was reading that part of Book 5. Sicarius has already been established as giving Starcest special treatment, for lack of a better way to phrase it.

Sarah

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2012, 04:10:41 pm »
Sarah...that passage is exactly why I think the refused order was to kill Starcrest.  I can see Sicarius thinking that long term having Starcrest around as an "outside force" would be beneficial expecially when Sespian became emperor.

I guess I was thinking about it in a different way -- that Sicarius would choose to emulate Starcrest based on that scene in a situation not involving Starcrest, not that Sicarius would see Starcrest's future value as a strategic asset. Like Luke Skywalker following Yoda's advice, kind of thing.
"She tried to imagine him married and living in a house in the countryside with a passel of toddlers running around. The vision did not evolve far. If he ever  married, it would have to be to someone who would follow him into the woods and up a tree." -- Dark Currents

K2N2

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Re: Epiphany!
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2012, 06:53:10 pm »
I guess I was thinking about it in a different way -- that Sicarius would choose to emulate Starcrest based on that scene in a situation not involving Starcrest, not that Sicarius would see Starcrest's future value as a strategic asset. Like Luke Skywalker following Yoda's advice, kind of thing.
Hmmm.  Hadn't thought about it like that before.   Going to have to go re-read Encrypted, or portions thereof.